Paul Lazenby on Wrestle Kingdom 13, Jay White’s Rise and AEW’s Arrival

Fred: Hey, everybody, this is Fred Richani of TSC. I have right here via Skype our good friend Paul “The Mauler” Lazenby: actor, stuntman, author and one of the hosts of the “Killing the Town” podcast. This guy has more titles than Hiroshi Tanahashi. We’re here to talk about his recent trip to Japan, where he was front and center at Wrestle Kingdom in the Tokyo Dome. Paul, how’s it going?

Paul Lazenby: Really good, but I’ve got to correct you on one thing. I’m no longer a regular host of “Killing the Town.” It became too tough to make it work with my regular schedule, so Don Callis is carrying the show, and I just guest on it once in a while.

Fred: So you give him the rub once in a blue moon.

Paul Lazenby: Exactly. I go for a ratings pop and then take off again. Help that young upstart out. He’s struggling in the business right now. He needs a leg up.

Fred: You just came back from Japan. Last year was your first time back in 20 years, and now it seems like you’re making it a yearly thing. How was your trip?

Paul Lazenby: Fantastic. This is my third trip back, and it’s going to be a shock to my system when I don’t fly to Japan on New Year’s Day. I love Japan. It’s such a great country, and I’m always happy to be back.

Fred: Any pro tips for somebody like me who wants to go but speaks no Japanese and has no friends in Japan?

Paul Lazenby: It’s actually surprisingly easy. People are very accommodating, politeness is ingrained in the culture and a lot of people speak at least a little English. It’s a lot easier now than when I was over there fighting in the ’90s, because now you have translation software. Have some sort of English-to-Japanese translation technology or a book, and people will love you for making any effort whatsoever. I think they’re used to Westerners expecting everybody to speak English, so when a Westerner makes the effort to use one or two words of Japanese, they really appreciate it. Generally, you won’t have a problem getting by.

Fred: You started out in the business with the likes of Chris Jericho, Lance Storm and Don Callis, who’s now a New Japan commentator. It’s got to be crazy for you to be at the Tokyo Dome, New Japan’s version of WrestleMania, and see some of your closest friends right in the mix at this stage of their careers.

Paul Lazenby: Last year was the year Jericho wrestled Kenny Omega, and we were sitting in Chris’ dressing room at the Dome. I looked at him and said, “Dude, how insane is this? You helped teach me how to wrestle in a bowling alley in Calgary in 1991, and now we’re sitting in a locker room in the freaking Tokyo Dome.” Even Chris, who’s had so much success for so long, said the same thing. It blows him away to look back at where he started and where he’s ended up. This year was even cooler, because not only was Chris there, but I’ve made friends with a lot of other people on the New Japan roster, so I got to go back and see them and hang out in Roppongi with a really good bunch of guys.

Fred: I’ve never been to the Tokyo Dome, but when you step into a mecca like Madison Square Garden, there’s a vibe. Can you describe the feeling of being at the Tokyo Dome compared to other arenas?

Paul Lazenby: The last three years, I’ve been lucky enough to have a backstage pass, so I got to experience it from backstage and from watching the show, and you feel the history. Legendary things have happened there, and I kept thinking of all the legendary names who’ve walked that same ground. It’s the same, even more so, with Korakuen Hall right beside the Dome. It’s a little building that seats about 2,000, but it’s maybe the most historic combat sports building in Japan, and it’s where I had my last fight with Pancrase. Anybody who’s anybody runs there. So not only does New Japan run the Tokyo Dome every Jan. 4, but every Jan. 5 they run New Year Dash at Korakuen Hall, and you get to feel the history in both places.

Fred: I thought Wrestle Kingdom was fantastic top to bottom and is already in the running for show of the year. My jaw was dropping during Tanahashi-Omega, and I thought Okada-White was a fantastic matchup as well.

Paul Lazenby: Believe it or not, I think Jericho versus Naito might have been Jericho’s best match, even in his late 40s. Jericho just keeps going from strength to strength. I went to see Minoru Suzuki at his Pile Driver store in Harajuku, and we’re the same age, about 10 days apart. I asked him how his body was doing, and he said it’s good, because he’s always training. Same with Chris. Despite his schedule, he’s always training. When you’re pushing yourself as hard as Suzuki, Jericho or I do, you have to combine a genetic predisposition to absorbing punishment with a good work ethic and staying on top of your training. If you do that, 48, 49 or 50 doesn’t mean what it used to. Look at Michael O’Hearn. He’s 49 and has a face and body most 20-year-olds would kill for, and he’s not just a bodybuilder. He’s an athlete. That’s why we can still do fun stuff at 48, 49 or 50.

Fred: Do you think Chris Jericho has made a case for wrestlers having an off-season, or at least extended time off, given what it’s done for him in New Japan?

Paul Lazenby: He’s made a case for it, but I can’t see the paradigm changing anytime soon, because WWE calls the shots. If AEW becomes a big thing, or Impact continues to grow, and someone becomes a solid No. 2 and starts cycling performers in a way that makes good business sense, it would make them very attractive. Japan always used to do that. I remember wondering why I didn’t see Terry Gordy and Steve Williams around North America much, and it’s because they liked their deal in All Japan. They’d do 10-week tours and then come home and have a lot of time off, instead of being on the road 24/7, 365. I think it’s a very good idea, but I can’t see it changing in WWE.

Fred: You’ve been to the last couple of Tokyo Dome shows. How did this year’s compare?

Paul Lazenby: I thought this year’s show was fantastic, but top to bottom, last year’s might have been a little stronger. Nothing bad can be said about the last three or four matches this year, though. I really enjoyed Jericho-Naito, not just because Chris has been my friend for almost 30 years, but because I like scrappier, brawling fights. That’s what was cool about this show. It gave you so many different flavors. If you like high spots, it gave you that. If you like a good street fight, you had Jericho-Naito. Check out Chris Jericho’s Instagram for pictures of his legitimate battle scars. Both of them came out of that beat up as hell, but smiling. And then you had a classic main event with Kenny Omega versus Tanahashi. There was something for everybody.

Fred: What’s your assessment of Jay White from year one as Switchblade to year two?

Paul Lazenby: He’s definitely developing. I think he would have benefited from being brought along more slowly, because all the pieces are there, but you can tell he’s still developing. He’s still better than most performers in the world, and he’s way better than I ever was. I got the impression he was maybe supposed to stay in Ring of Honor a little longer, but New Japan needed a guy, so they brought him in and strapped a rocket to him, and he’s handling it very well. There are still a few wrinkles to iron out in establishing him as a top, top guy, but I don’t think it’ll take long. He made great progress in the last year, and with the departures from New Japan creating a vacuum that will draw guys like him upward, I think he’ll very capably carry the New Japan standard.

Fred: Kenny Omega’s future is up in the air at the time we’re recording this. A lot of people, myself included, think he’s going to AEW. Look at Jan. 4 and New Japan’s top four guys: Naito, Omega, Okada and Tanahashi. Can you think of a time when there were four better top guys for a promotion?

Paul Lazenby: Not better. There have been eras like Kawada, Misawa and Kobashi in All Japan, or the Three Musketeers and a lot of other stellar talent in previous eras of New Japan. But they’re as good as any top lineup any promotion has ever had.

Fred: With the mass exodus of stars, The Elite going to All Elite Wrestling, Kenny Omega maybe going straight to AEW and Kushida rumored to be going to WWE, can New Japan bring up guys like Jay White and Juice Robinson to fill the void by the next Tokyo Dome?

Paul Lazenby: Absolutely, and I think it’s very good for those guys. By this time next year, Jay will be a vastly improved player, and he’s already great. I’d been hearing Juice’s name a lot before I came out to Japan two years ago, and I saw him for the first time when he wrestled Cody at the Tokyo Dome. I was blown away. He knows the value of selling, which a lot of people don’t these days, and he’s got a great personality and loads of charisma. He’s been rising steadily over the last two years, and he’s ready to step up and take his spot as a true top guy. I heard he just signed a new multiyear deal with New Japan, which I think is a smart move. From what I was hearing, WWE might have been interested in bringing him back, but with the power vacuum being created, he made the right decision staying with New Japan.

Fred: Who would have thought it a few years ago, when he was CJ Parker, the environmentalist in NXT? The only time he really got to shine was in Kevin Owens’ NXT debut match. Then he goes to New Japan, pays his dues and becomes a rising star.

Paul Lazenby: And he went through the dojo system. I think that’s why he gets a lot of respect over there. He didn’t want to come over as a foreigner who got put straight in the ring. He said, “I want to live in the dojo. I want to do it like that.” He didn’t ask for any special treatment, and that’s why he gets a lot of respect in the Japanese wrestling community.

Fred: I was listening to an old clip of you challenging Taz on “Killing the Town,” after Taz intimated that Shane McMahon could beat an MMA fighter. You mentioned being stretched and tortured in the dojo by your now-good friend Minoru Suzuki. For fans who aren’t sure what the dojo system is like, describe a day in the dojo with the great Minoru Suzuki.

Paul Lazenby: I have to preface this by saying I actually received privileged treatment in the Pancrase dojo, and I felt guilty about it. If you haven’t heard the story, I lied my way into that company. I had no experience in any combat sport, no wrestling, boxing, kickboxing or martial arts, so I lied and said I did, and I ended up learning by fighting in Pancrase. They saw some potential and brought me into the dojo, but I wasn’t doing all the young boy stuff, like cooking, cleaning and taking care of the senior fighters. In fact, they were doing that for me, and I felt guilty, because they’d all paid more dues than I had. My buddy Stuart Fulton, a Scotsman who now does English-language commentary for Pancrase, had to live the young boy life. Even so, it was really grueling. I expected the Pancrase dojo to be state-of-the-art, and it was a very rough, primitive corrugated metal shack in the suburbs of Yokohama, with no indoor heat and no indoor toilet. You had to go halfway down a hill to use an outhouse, and you slept on a mat on the floor. Then there was the infamous day Suzuki decided to see if their investment in me was worth it and stretched me horribly for 30 straight minutes. I remember it vividly over 20 years later. He’s so good that he can put you in agony without actually injuring you, so you can still train. I won’t forget it anytime soon.

Fred: Could elements of the Japanese dojos work in North America?

Paul Lazenby: I don’t know how many people would submit to those conditions. We live in an overprivileged society right now, and a lot of people think that the first time something is too difficult, or someone says something negative to them, they’ll just leave. But I think there are young male and female fighters and wrestlers who might submit to it, and if you could run people through a system like that, I think you’d end up with better performers and fighters.

Fred: All Elite Wrestling is ridiculously fluid right now. At their rally, they revealed a number of signings, with The Elite the obvious ones and some surprises like Chris Jericho and PAC, formerly Neville in WWE. The Wrestling Observer reports potential TV deals for a two-hour prime-time show. What are your thoughts?

Paul Lazenby: They’re certainly ambitious, and I think Jericho’s acquisition will give them a lot of momentum. The Bucks and Cody being on board creates a lot of buzz, but Chris has another level of visibility and star power, so signing him makes a very big statement that they want to be players in North America. You don’t know until they come out of the gate. They’ve got all the pieces in place, but Tony Khan, the son of Jaguars owner Shad Khan, is financing the company, and it’s my understanding he doesn’t have a great deal of experience in the wrestling business. It can also be a difficult balancing act being pushed as talent and being in the office at the same time, so we’ll see how well Cody, the Bucks and whoever else is on the booking team navigate it. I’m not saying they can’t, but it adds another level of difficulty. That’s what makes AEW so compelling. They’ve come out so big and so brash and made so many bold moves. Now let’s see what they do with it.

Fred: Do you think New Japan will eventually establish a women’s division or work with a company like Stardom?

Paul Lazenby: I’d like to see it. The heyday of Japanese pro wrestling, around the ’90s, produced some of the best wrestling you’ll ever see. Look at Manami Toyota’s matches. She’s as good a worker, male or female, as you’ll ever see. The women need to be showcased more, especially the way they wrestle in Japan. It’s a tougher, stiffer style, and any woman who establishes herself in Japan and comes back to North America, like Medusa or Awesome Kong, comes back a level above everybody else. More opportunities on a big stage in Japan would be a tremendous benefit to women’s wrestling worldwide. WWE has done a lot for women’s wrestling and increased its exposure, and there are blow-away great matches and incredibly talented wrestlers there, like Becky Lynch, Charlotte and Asuka. But some of it looks like going through the motions, because the women’s movement is so popular that everybody got swept along with the wave, and not everybody deserves to be pushed to the same extent. I think the way it’s structured in Japan is more merit-based. I’m not including Ronda Rousey in that, because for a first-timer she’s done incredibly well, and she draws enough to justify her spot. But overall I prefer the Japanese system.

Fred: In some ways, WWE may have done New Japan a favor. Io Shirai is getting over in NXT, Kairi Sane has gotten over, Dakota Kai had a run in Stardom, and there’s Toni Storm. There’s already a precedent for women who got over in Japan coming to the U.S. and becoming bigger stars.

Paul Lazenby: Likewise, if Shinsuke Nakamura ever comes back to New Japan, he’ll be bigger than ever, and he was huge when he left. It never hurts to go somewhere else and try another style. The Japanese system of sending young talent on excursions to different countries to learn different styles is such a great idea. I think that’s a problem with the WWE Performance Center. Everybody learns the same things promo-wise and match-wise, so they come out talking the same and moving the same. When you watch NXT, you can tell who the cookie-cutters are and who learned multiple styles on the independents and brought that to the PC. Somebody like Velveteen Dream, who I understand started at the PC, seems to be doing really well, but for the most part, I think it’s a flawed system, because you need to expose yourself to different styles to find the one that works for you.

Fred: The Revival are another team that stands out. They’re kind of a throwback, but they’re different from everybody on the roster.

Paul Lazenby: Sometimes what’s old is new again, and The Revival bring a lot of things that work into modern wrestling. I never want to be mistaken for an old guy who says it should be like the old days, because some things in wrestling are better than ever. The athleticism is at a higher level than ever, and the money-making opportunities for wrestlers have never been better. But just because you move into a new era doesn’t mean you discard everything from the previous one. The only PWG show I ever went to, Kyle O’Reilly was defending the world title against Chris Hero. I sat through every high spot in the world before we even got to intermission. PWG crowds love high spots, but even that crowd was starting to turn, because when your opening match goes 15 minutes with every flip in the world and then you have five or six more like it, everybody’s numb. We got to the semi-main event, Hero versus O’Reilly, at 20 minutes to midnight, going into the sixth hour of the show in a hot, unventilated building, and they just wrestled. They were the only ones on the show with no flips. They told a story, and they went over 40 minutes and actually rejuvenated the crowd for the main event, because it was something different. That made me realize the business will never evolve beyond storytelling and psychology. New talent should definitely do the things in modern wrestling that work, but you need to learn the foundation skills from previous generations and build your athleticism and high spots on top of that. Otherwise, you’re an incomplete worker with limited appeal.

Fred: Chris Jericho is a great example. His Tokyo Dome matches the last couple of years were completely different from everything else, and it’s not easy to follow guys like The Bucks, Ospreay and Okada.

Paul Lazenby: You follow them by being different. You’re not going to out-Buck The Bucks or out-Ospreay Ospreay, because they’re incredibly good at that, and there’s definitely a place for it. I used to be a purist who thought The Bucks were spot monkeys killing the business, and then I realized these guys are self-made millionaires. They’re obviously tapping into something the fans want, and I’ve since found out they can work really well too. But you need diversity on your show. I had this conversation with Juice Robinson and Rocky Romero on my last night in Japan, and we all agreed that a card full of high-spot matches is bad, but you need that style represented even if it isn’t the one you like, because a lot of people like it. Then you need straight wrestling on your show, maybe a comedy match too. Give people a mixed bag.

Fred: Ring of Honor is in an awkward spot. It gave a great platform to Cody and The Elite, helped promote All In, and now, a couple of months later, those guys created ROH’s biggest competitor. Is this make-or-break for ROH? Could Sinclair sell, or will it light a fire under them to finally put full corporate backing behind ROH in 2019?

Paul Lazenby: I think they’re primed to make a move, and I see little indications. Here in Vancouver, there’s a two-day event called Ballroom Brawl, run by ECCW, and I heard PCO and Bandido were supposed to be on the show and both got pulled. At least in PCO’s case, it was because of ROH saying, “That’s it. We’re locking you down.” They do work with other companies, but they’re starting to pull their talent in. I think you’ll see them get more stingy with talent and sign longer deals to brace against further departures and talent raids. They don’t want to be a feeder system and build people up only to have them run away to AEW. Who does that benefit? The fans, and definitely the wrestlers, who can finally drive up their price. It reminds me of the glory days of MMA, when Pride and the UFC were bidding against each other, which was great for the fighters, and the days of New Japan, WCW and the WWF, when you always had someone to play against someone else. A monopoly benefits very few people, so it’s really cool to see viable alternatives to WWE, to the point that people get WWE offers and sometimes say, “No, thank you. I prefer the indies.” There’s never been a better time to be an in-demand pro wrestler.

Fred: 2019 is certainly going to be fun. I know you’ve got a lot going on. What’s in store for you?

Paul Lazenby: I just wrapped “Gears 5,” which will be the end of my four-year run playing Marcus Fenix. I was in “Gears of War: Ultimate Edition” and “Gears of War 4,” so I’m bringing that to a close. It’s been a real privilege to play such an iconic character for four years, but I decided it was time to move on. I’ve been working on a lot of CW shows, like “Riverdale,” “Legends of Tomorrow” and “Arrow.” In fact, I was just in a scene with Cody on “Arrow” a few weeks ago. And I’m working on the third volume of my book series, “When We Were Bouncers,” so I’m already collecting interviews for that, which should be out later this year or early next year. And even though I’m not a co-host, definitely listen to “Killing the Town” with Don Callis. You’ll hear me on it sometimes, and Lance Storm guests too.

Fred: For those who don’t know about “When We Were Bouncers,” give us a brief synopsis.

Paul Lazenby: It’s a collection of interviews with famous pro wrestlers, MMA fighters and other combat athletes, actors, comedians, stuntmen and a wide variety of accomplished people telling stories from their days working as bouncers on their way up the ladder of success. I was a bouncer for about 20 years, so when I started writing the series, I thought there would be no surprises for me. I was very wrong. There are some insane stories in there. Both volumes are on sale on Amazon, or you can ask your local bookseller to order them.

Fred: There’s some extreme stuff in there for sure. Thanks so much, Paul. Appreciate it, man.

Paul Lazenby: Thank you.