Paul Lazenby on Liger’s Farewell, Jericho vs. Tanahashi and Leaving Gears of War

Fred: What’s up, everybody? Fred Richani of The Sports Courier Podcast. We have a good friend on the line, a man with more job titles than Jushin Thunder Liger has accolades: Paul “The Mauler” Lazenby, actor, pro wrestler, fighter, stuntman and motion-capture performer. Paul, how’s it going?

Paul Lazenby: Fantastic, man. Thanks for having me back.

Fred: You just got back from a long, fun trip to Japan, where you once again enjoyed the full extent of New Japan Pro-Wrestling’s Wrestle Kingdom week. How are you feeling?

Paul Lazenby: I’m good now. I had a bit of a nightmare trip back, with over 12 hours of layover, so it was a 27-hour trip door to door from Osaka. At the very tail end of the trip, I went from Tokyo to Osaka to reunite with Masakazu Funaki, who tore my bicep in a Pancrase ring back in 1997, and I had a great time with him and his family. I can finally say I’m recovered.

Fred: The big deal at Wrestle Kingdom was the double championship match, with Naito becoming double champion over Okada, but there was also a lot of hype surrounding Jushin Thunder Liger’s final matches. I had the pleasure of interviewing Liger years ago. You got to watch his final matches live. What was that like?

Paul Lazenby: Honestly, man, I had a lump in my throat both nights, and then at New Year Dash, the traditional event the night after Wrestle Kingdom, which was at Ota Ward Gymnasium this time instead of Korakuen Hall. It was very sobering. I’ve been in the pro wrestling business since 1991, and Liger was a prominent figure in the business on the first day I started. You start thinking a person like that is going to be around forever, and Liger can still go at 54 or 55. To see that guy bring down the final curtain really does hit you right here.

Fred: A lot of people have talked about making WrestleMania two nights, because seven- or eight-hour shows are really hard to get through, to say the least. New Japan split Wrestle Kingdom into two nights for the first time. As somebody who was there, would you say the experiment was a success?

Paul Lazenby: Yes. You could still knock it down to one night, but then everybody wouldn’t get to play, so if you want to include that quantity of talent, I think WrestleMania has definitely reached the point where you have to ask how people stay engaged for that long. The first Wrestle Kingdom I went to was the year Kyle O’Reilly and Adam Cole had their Ring of Honor championship match. I’ve known Kyle forever and Adam for quite a while, so I wanted to see them at the Dome. That was about a six-hour show, and I was definitely past the point of burnout by the end. Thankfully, Omega-Okada was the main event, which would rejuvenate anybody, but six hours is too long for a show. It was a good idea to break it into two, and WrestleMania should follow suit.

Fred: Wrestle Kingdom drew over 70,000 fans combined, with around 40,000 the first night and around 30,000 the second. It sounds like a huge success, but is there anything New Japan could do better going forward?

Paul Lazenby: I believe it was a legit 40,000 paid the first night, so the experiment was definitely a success. I had a chance to talk to Harold Meij, the company president, backstage a little bit, and he has some great ideas for merchandising, which I think is a wide-open door for New Japan. They already pursue merchandising aggressively, but his ideas could carry them further in that direction. It’s easy to sit back and pick apart the card, but if I were to point to one thing, it might be being a little more aggressive about time restrictions on matches. That’s a minor wrinkle. Overall, I was very impressed with the organization and the promotion of both shows.

One thing that’s inescapable when you get more North American attention, and this is completely beyond New Japan’s control, is that they’re suffering from their success in one way. I noticed complaints online from North American fans who have the Japanese attitude of showing up to appreciate and enjoy the show, because they saw some of their own taking their shirts off, trying to start their own chants and leaving garbage on the ground, which you don’t do in Japan. Japanese fans clean up after themselves. There are a lot of great North American fans too. I’m not saying our side of the ocean is bad and theirs is universally good, but there’s a lot we can learn from Japanese fans. They buy in on a level North American fans haven’t for quite a while. During Jushin Liger’s retirement ceremony at New Year Dash, they had a 10-bell salute, and that place, with thousands of people, was dead silent through the entire thing. Nobody went into business for themselves, nobody tried to start a chant, and nobody tried to bring attention to themselves. That ceremony was about Liger, and everybody participated, appreciated him and respected him. For all the things that are great about North American fans, they could take a page out of the Japanese fans’ book in that respect.

Fred: Hiroshi Tanahashi had a classic match of his own against your longtime friend Chris Jericho. They didn’t do anything crazy. It was just two masters at work. You had a front-row seat. How would you describe that masterpiece?

Paul Lazenby: It always has an additional element for me, because on my very first day of wrestling school, I met Lance Storm and Chris Jericho. Chris is my second-oldest friend in the business. I met this guy at a bowling alley in Calgary in 1991, when nobody knew who Chris Jericho was, and now I’m sitting at ringside with his son. Last year, I sat with his dad watching him tear the Tokyo Dome apart. That increases my appreciation of the match, but taking it off the table, and this is what I told his son, Ash, right before the match started, you really are watching two masters at work. Jericho has the talent and the mind for the business, and in a lot of ways, Tanahashi is his counterpart. They’re not just flippers and flyers, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but they’re master psychologists and storytellers. Put them together, turn them loose on the biggest stage in Japanese wrestling, and you have a right to expect something epic, and that’s exactly what we got.

Fred: Both guys were smart not just in the match but in how they built it up, bringing the AEW World title into the mix. To the best of my knowledge, relations between New Japan and AEW are still frosty, but Jericho put everybody on the spot, essentially saying, “I haven’t been successful in this business for 30 years by doing stupid business. New Japan should work with AEW, and vice versa.” Right now it looks like New Japan will keep working with Ring of Honor, which is great for both companies, but I still feel like there’s money left on the table. Could you see New Japan and AEW finally working together in 2020?

Paul Lazenby: They’re going to have a connection with AEW whether they like it or not because of Jericho’s relationship with AEW. I have to take my hat off to Tony Khan for one thing. If I put my promoter hat on, there are some things I might suggest changing in AEW and some things I think they’re doing very well, and one thing that surprised me is Tony Khan’s immediate openness to having an AEW presence in other organizations. I think that’s a very heads-up play, and so was his willingness to let Jericho wear the AEW belt to the ring. I was in Jericho’s locker room before the match, and I saw him pull the belt out of his bag and put it on under his T-shirt with a smile on his face, like, “Wait till they see me pull my shirt off.” He did, and it got a huge reaction.

Fred: New Japan has also launched New Japan Pro-Wrestling of America, a separate division that will primarily run in the States, and it’s going to need exposure.

Paul Lazenby: I kick myself, because I should know them all by name by now, but there are three standout American Young Lions from the New Japan LA Dojo. I’ve watched them work on the LA shows and in Japan, and those guys are freaking animals. New Japan has American talent that is solely theirs, developed by them, and that needs to be exploited. Pay attention to the Young Lions on both sides of the ocean, like Yota Tsuji on the Japanese side, who’s a badass. There was a six-man tag with three Japanese Young Lions against three American Young Lions that came across like a fight, which can get lost in the modern environment’s emphasis on choreography. It was one of the better six-man tag matches I’ve seen in a long time, because they all came across so scrappy, young, athletic and aggressive. New Japan has great American talent who can become big American stars and help establish a beachhead over here.

Fred: We asked this last year and got some flak for it, but now that New Japan’s parent company has acquired Stardom, the top women’s organization in Japan, in an ideal world, should New Japan have a women’s division?

Paul Lazenby: I think so. There’s enough women’s talent out there, whether it’s regular Stardom matches on New Japan shows or an actual New Japan women’s division. I think it’s inevitable. The female talent in pro wrestling and combat sports is undeniable. Comedian Bill Burr was asked by a journalist whether we need more women in show business, and he basically said, “Just be undeniable, and you’ll get where you need to be.” You might have unfair obstacles put in front of you, but everybody does. We saw that in MMA. When I was fighting for Pancrase in the ’90s, I asked an executive if we’d ever see women’s fights in Pancrase, and he laughed at me. Now you see them all the time. It wasn’t that long ago that people said you’d never see women in the Octagon, and now women are a prominent presence there, because you can’t deny them. They’re badasses, they’re savages, and they deserve a spot in combat sports and in professional wrestling. Whether it’s a strong Stardom presence within New Japan or their own division, I just want to see women there.

Fred: One guy you’ve wanted to see on the national stage for a while finally got there after all these years: Dr. Luther in AEW. A lot of younger fans are asking who this guy is. For anybody who hasn’t witnessed the chaos that is Dr. Luther, describe him a bit.

Paul Lazenby: With due respect to the AEW commentary team, I really think the ball was dropped on his reveal. So much more could have been done in that time to get him over with the fans, but I think he’ll get over regardless. He’s another of my oldest friends in the business. I met him very early in my training at the Hart Brothers’, and I got my first welcome-to-the-business stiff shot from Dr. Luther. That bastard. I’ve got to pay him back for that. He’s kind of like a Nigel McGuinness figure, so great, better than most people, and yet he slipped through the cracks time and again. Nigel finally found his spot as a commentator after a great run as Ring of Honor champion, and Luther, at this late stage of his career, finally has a shot at the top in North America. Very early in his career, he was a death match pioneer in FMW, but he’s also a great worker who could go with anybody, which gets overlooked. He went to South Africa and not only wrestled but promoted, with the first barbed-wire matches ever held there, and he had some great matches with the talent over there. The best match of my entire career was with him in Durban, and that wasn’t because of me. He was carrying me. He was on WCW’s radar and WWE’s radar, but circumstances didn’t work out, and he had tremendous bad luck at different stages of his career. It’s common knowledge that he’s very close with Chris Jericho, but I don’t think I’m letting the cat out of the bag by saying he wasn’t given a gift. Jericho was in his corner, but Luther had to audition several times. He wasn’t given a spot. He was given a chance at a spot, and he earned it by killing his auditions. I think he’s done a great job in the very early stages of his AEW career, and I can’t wait to watch him develop there.

Fred: Dr. Luther isn’t the only older guy still kicking ass in the ring. You got to hang out backstage at WWE recently with Rey Mysterio, who’s in his mid-40s and might still be the best babyface in all of professional wrestling.

Paul Lazenby: He’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever met in my life. Rey is one of those guys where, if you hear that somebody doesn’t like Rey, that’s a comment on that person, not on Rey. And what an amazing talent. I asked him, because he’s had what, nine or 10 knee surgeries, “Dude, how have you done this?” Robbie Lawler did it in the UFC too. How do you have a late-career resurgence and outperform the Rey Mysterio of five, six or seven years ago? He laughed and said, “I have no idea. I just kept at it, and at some point my body started responding again to all the rehab work.” He rode out the physical rough patch. He’s admittedly long in the tooth, and he’s not the Rey Mysterio of 15 or 20 years ago, but he’s kicking all kinds of ass and outperforming expectations. It couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.

Fred: You’re a nice guy as well, but you’re an absolute badass. I’m not calling you old, but you’ve been doing this a long time, and every time I’m on Instagram, I see guys like Edge and CM Punk in awe of your deadlifts and squats. What’s your secret?

Paul Lazenby: There’s a genetic component that I like to call the Flair gene. Ric Flair ran his body so hard for so long, and Steve Austin said that in terms of what your body can withstand, Flair is the toughest guy in wrestling history. I think I’ve benefited a little from that. But most of it is just don’t stop, especially as you get into later life. You’ve got to keep the momentum going, and if you haven’t generated it, do what it takes to generate it, and then keep training. Don’t quit. I’ve had monthslong episodes of injuries and other health challenges, but I did what I could. A few years ago, I got a parasite that was killing me, so I just walked the stairs up and down in my apartment building, because that was all I could do. Eventually I got back to better health, and the last few years have been great. My body’s been responding, and I’m looking at maybe returning to powerlifting competition next year while still keeping up with the MMA stuff. A buddy of mine, Bill “The Butcher” Mahood, fought MMA into his 40s, and four days after one of his fights, he was back to roadwork. Somebody asked why he didn’t take the full week off, and he said, “When you get older, fitness is like pushing a car. If you keep it up, it’s easy, but if you stop and try to restart it, it’s a lot tougher.” Like Karl Gotch said, when you’re young, you should train, and when you’re old, you must train. That’s my attitude.

Fred: Good advice. I’m assuming you’re not scarfing down cheeseburgers either.

Paul Lazenby: Right, once a week. I have a great diet coach, an extremely high-level physique competitor, and one of the smartest things I did was turn my diet over to her, because I don’t have a great deal of dietary knowledge. Way back when I was choosing between bodybuilding and powerlifting, I looked at two things: genetics, which I don’t have tremendously for bodybuilding, and diet. Powerlifters eat whatever they want, so that was my sport. For a movie coming out later this year on Netflix, “The Main Event,” she got me down to about 227 pounds, which for me is super shredded, and I don’t have the knowledge to do that myself. Once a week, I have a three-hour window where I eat whatever I want. All bets are off, and I get disgusting with it, but it’s just that one little pocket of time, and you do the right things the rest of the week. I don’t know the science of it, but it seems to be working for me.

Fred: You’ve been doing motion capture for video games going back to “Def Jam: Vendetta,” and you recently left the “Gears of War” franchise after a stellar run as Marcus Fenix in “Gears of War: Ultimate Edition,” “Gears of War 4” and “Gears 5.” Those are some of my favorite games of all time. Why was now the time to leave?

Paul Lazenby: It was just time for me and the Coalition studio to go our separate ways. They have very hard-and-fast ideas about who gets the credit in their games. Not a lot of people realize that the motion-capture team does everything you see on the screen, all the dialogue, the stunts and the acting, and then the dialogue is redubbed by the voice talent. I have no grudge against the voice talent. John DiMaggio has done the voice of Marcus Fenix since the very beginning, kind of like Kane Hodder as Jason Voorhees in the “Friday the 13th” franchise. But when the studio’s attitude is that the voice talent gets 100 percent of the credit, including credit for all of our work, that got to be too much. It eventually got to the point where they dressed the voice talent in motion-capture suits and shot a behind-the-scenes video saying, “Here’s the Gears cast doing motion capture,” and that left a bad taste in my mouth. It’s their sandbox, and they’re entitled to make their rules, but it’s also my choice whether I want to keep playing in it. I did so much research and talked to Gears fans for years to make sure I brought the best possible portrayal of Marcus to the game, and having the credit for all of that deferred to somebody else just wasn’t my thing. It wasn’t moving the needle in my career anymore, so it was time to go.

Fred: You’re a well-respected guy in the industry, and I think a lot of people who’ve been in similar positions will appreciate you speaking out. As great as the video game industry is, a lot still needs to change, particularly for motion-capture performers and for animators dealing with crunch time.

Paul Lazenby: I think you’re right. When you’re watching a video game, the majority of the performance is the mocap team, the voice actors dub their voices on, and they’re talented actors too, and the animators bring the characters to the screen. Imagine taking the Netflix show “Money Heist” and saying the people who dubbed the English dialogue are the only stars, and ignoring the actors who did all the acting. That doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve done a lot of voice acting myself, so I realize there’s a lot more to it, and a lot more talent required, than people realize. I’m hoping that going forward, voice actors keep getting the credit they deserve, and the motion-capture and animation teams get the credit they deserve too.

Fred: On a lighter note, you’re always popping up everywhere. I’ll be watching Netflix or HBO and say, “That’s Paul Lazenby.” What have you got going on in 2020?

Paul Lazenby: The industry in Vancouver continues roaring along, so you’ll see me in a Farrelly brothers production called “The Now,” in an episode with Dave Franco. I love working with the Farrellys. I worked with Peter Farrelly on “Loudermilk,” where I had a great role, and then with his brother Bobby on “The Now,” because they trade episodes. I’ll work with those guys anytime. They’re responsible for “Dumb and Dumber,” “There’s Something About Mary” and “Kingpin.” I’ve also been doing some work on “Supernatural” and a couple of other new shows, and I’m in talks to possibly do some work in Toronto, which would be cool, because I’m from Kitchener, about an hour from Toronto, and I’ve never worked there in 20 years in the industry. It would be pretty sweet to come home and work on a big production, since I left Kitchener as a destitute pauper.

Fred: And of course, there’s your popular “When We Were Bouncers” series, volumes one and two, on Amazon. For anybody who hasn’t read them, describe them.

Paul Lazenby: It’s pretty straightforward: people prominent in their fields, whether WWE stars and Hall of Famers, UFC stars, famous actors, comedians or other prominent individuals, telling stories from their days working as bouncers and security. You’ll find UFC Hall of Famers like Bas Rutten, Don Frye and Pat Miletich, and TV stars like Theo Rossi from “Luke Cage” and “Sons of Anarchy.” It’s lots of short, self-contained stories, good reading for the bathroom or the bus to work. I’m working on volume three now, and I’ve already got some very big names. Thanks to everybody who has supported the series, including S.E. Hinton. It still blows me away that the author of “The Outsiders” has been a very vocal supporter of the series. Everybody’s support is appreciated, but that one really caught me off guard.