Jim Ross on Reigns vs. Lesnar, NXT and the Pressure of Closing WrestleMania

Fred: What’s up, everybody? This is Fred Richani of TSC News, and I have right here on the line a true professional wrestling legend I had the pleasure of meeting a couple of months back in Sayreville, New Jersey. He rocked the house at the Starland Ballroom, and he’s getting ready to rock San Jose and the Bay Area on WrestleMania weekend. I’m talking about good ol’ J.R., Jim Ross. How’s it going, man?

Jim Ross: Brother, if I was any better, I’d probably be twins. Thank you for having me on.

Fred: My pleasure, sir. Let’s talk about the Road to WrestleMania. A couple of months back, you told me that with Roman Reigns, you’d rather be late to the party than early. At the moment, Vince McMahon is a little early to the Roman Reigns party, with Reigns against Brock Lesnar in the main event. What’s your overall feeling about this WrestleMania card?

Jim Ross: The momentum going into WrestleMania could probably use a shot in the arm, but I don’t really have any issues with the card. I’m always leery, because I used to book cards for live events for years, and I’m sure people could look at some of my cards and say they didn’t sound very good. My point has always been: Let’s see how it plays out before we cast judgment. Has the build been as exciting and unpredictable as many would like? Probably not. But does that mean the show won’t be productive and exciting, with some unpredictable elements? Absolutely not. I like to give the talent the benefit of the doubt, because they have the opportunity to make it really special.

Lesnar and Reigns is an interesting situation, because athletically you’ve got two outstanding athletes, and I think they’ll have a good match. If Lesnar stays, he could very easily win the match by hook or crook, and Paul Heyman is the hook or crook. If Lesnar goes, you don’t have any option but to beat him, in my view. Full disclosure, my group recruited and signed Lesnar, so he’s always going to be special in my eyes. And when I was going down to developmental in Orlando, and before that to Florida Championship Wrestling in Tampa, I got to know Roman Reigns very well. I knew his dad back in the day, and I know The Rock and signed The Rock as well. I think he’s got unlimited upside, but you get good at different times. His match with Daniel Bryan at Fast Lane was excellent. It’s like asking how good my Sooners are going to be this year. We hope they’re better than last year, but we won’t know until they start playing games. I remain optimistic.

WrestleMania is a lot like the Super Bowl. Within the genre, it’s the ultimate. If your team’s not in the Super Bowl, you might not be as emotionally invested, but if you’re a football fan, you’re still going to watch, because it’s the Super Bowl. If you’re a wrestling fan and the card isn’t exactly to your liking, you’re still going to watch WrestleMania.

Fred: Great analogy. You told the Wrestling Observer a few months back that you were a little worried Reigns against Lesnar, or Lesnar against anybody, might get a Goldberg-Lesnar type reaction, because most fans know Lesnar may be leaving. Do you still have that worry?

Jim Ross: Not as prominently. I think Reigns has gained a lot of popularity with the fans in the last several weeks. Is he where he has to be to be the guy? No, but he’s a work in progress, and he’s got all the intangibles to become a longtime major star. But the WrestleMania audience, and certainly the Raw the night after, with so many international fans on hand, becomes very unpredictable. Reigns still has a hill or two to climb to get over the hump of “too much, too soon” and “I like Lesnar better.” And that’s not Reigns’ fault. Brock Lesnar is so impressive and so unique that he’s probably a creative tweak or two away from being the most popular wrestler in WWE. People live vicariously through that big bull. When we signed him out of the University of Minnesota, he wasn’t a lifelong wrestling fan whatsoever, but he was such a gifted athlete at 6-foot-3 and 285 pounds. A lot of people don’t realize that if you ran 40s, there are probably very few guys on that roster who could outrun him. That twitch reaction, that great first step. So I think Lesnar is going to be close to being a babyface no matter who he wrestles. You’ve got to go with the crowd, and I don’t know how you predict that crowd. The lines between fan favorites and villains are probably more blurred in WWE than in any wrestling company in the world.

Fred: Is that a problem in today’s wrestling? It’s nice to have a Walter White type of character who’s a little more dynamic, but one week a guy’s a face and the next week he’s a heel.

Jim Ross: It’s a philosophical question. For me, good versus evil is what we see in so many mainstream sports. The home team is usually considered the babyfaces and the visitors the heels, and people enjoy being exuberant about who they like, and they have as much fun investing that emotion in who they don’t like. Back when the Four Horsemen were at their peak, from my experience broadcasting a litany of their matches, fans enjoyed booing them. Then fans got so comfortable with them that they started cheering them, and the Horsemen didn’t embrace that, because when you’re a true wrestling villain, you want to be booed. That’s your job. In WWE today, that line is very thin, and I’d like to see it a little more pronounced. But as the old promoter’s saying goes, there’s an ass every 18 inches, meaning somebody in every seat, so does it really matter? I don’t know that it does. But having a definitive fan favorite and a definitive villain sometimes makes it easier for the guys to game-plan their matches.

Fred: How are you spending your Austin 3:16 Day?

Jim Ross: I saw that question on Twitter and got a kick out of it. Normally I’d go out and have a beer in Steve’s honor, but I’ve turned over a new leaf. I haven’t had a drink since the day after the Royal Rumble weekend, when I saw you back in January. Knowing how I eat and how I was raised, I’m on no fried food, no bread, no milk, no sugar. I’ve got a trainer, I’m going to the gym five days a week, working out with my trainer three days and doing extra cardio two days, and I’ve never felt better in years. I already sent Steve my “Happy 3:16 Day” text. We talk all the time, and we both stay pretty busy with our podcasts.

Fred: The UFC got its first non-American lightweight champion in promotional history, Rafael dos Anjos, who absolutely destroyed Anthony Pettis.

Jim Ross: I was surprised. I thought Pettis would prevail, partly because I’ve seen him do some extraordinary things, and he’ll continue to be an outstanding fighter. He had a bad night, and I wasn’t as aware of his challenger as I’m sure a lot of MMA fans were. That guy fought great in every phase, offensively, defensively and with Octagon control. I hardly saw him make a mistake. Some of the prefight stuff is hype, like pro wrestling, but Pettis seemed a little overconfident, maybe that’s part of his persona, and dos Anjos used it for fuel. He was perfect.

Fred: Dos Anjos was a midlevel fighter for a while, and over the last couple of years he knocked out Ben Henderson, destroyed Nate Diaz and now completely dominated Pettis. Is there a pro wrestling equivalent of a guy who was solid but not great and totally turned his career around?

Jim Ross: That was a more prominent thread in the territory days. Hulk Hogan worked all those little territories, Pensacola, Memphis and places like that, and about all he had going for him was an amazing look and a bright orange tan. But he learned in those territories how to be Hulk Hogan. He knew there were certain things he could do really well and certain things to stay away from, and he was smart enough to refine those philosophies. He went from a guy who had to be led by a really good heel or babyface to arguably one of the greatest attractions ever. Some guys just develop late. Ken Shamrock was that way. He came in with good fundamentals. He got some amateur wrestling training from a tough old son of a gun named Nelson Royal before he got into fighting, and we hired him under my watch. He’s well known for refereeing Austin and Bret Hart at WrestleMania 13, and he was really turning the corner. I think he would have been one of WWE’s biggest stars, but just as he was about to touch the promised land, he came to me and said he wanted to go back to fighting. It was in his blood, and he had some good opportunities, so we reluctantly helped facilitate his departure. “The World’s Most Dangerous Man” was a perfect name for wrestling, and his style became much more refined as time went on. Heck, look at Steve Austin. He was an underutilized tag team guy in WCW, got hurt, went to ECW and showed things most people didn’t realize he could do, because he was never cast that way in WCW. I hired him because I thought he had something, without knowing how it would manifest. It’s like a recruit who isn’t a five-star guy. Sam Bradford was a two-star recruit who ended up the first pick in the draft. You never know when the light bulb is going to go on.

Fred: A big talking point at your show was that it doesn’t matter how big or tall a guy is. If they have the talent, give them a chance, and you brought up Mick Foley as the best example. Look at NXT in 2015: Kevin Owens on top as champion without the best body, Sami Zayn not exactly a muscle head, and Finn Balor and Adrian Neville with great physiques but not 6-foot-4. NXT seems much more open-minded, and it looks like they’re turning it into a touring brand. Is that a good approach, and will Paul Levesque’s open-mindedness translate to the main roster when he comes into power?

Jim Ross: Paul is a true student of the game, a lifelong fan and a historian in a lot of ways, and he was always a very bright guy. When I was in charge of talent relations and had any number of issues, big or small, with The Kliq, Paul was always the ambassador, the level-headed one. He didn’t drink, didn’t smoke, didn’t do drugs. He just ate, slept and breathed wrestling. If you took everybody under 6 feet tall out of the history of wrestling, you’d eliminate some of the greatest stars the business has ever known. Dick the Bruiser was 5-foot-9, Buddy Rogers was 5-foot-10, Bruno Sammartino was 5-10 or 5-11. Chris Jericho isn’t 6 feet tall, Dolph Ziggler isn’t, and Daniel Bryan certainly isn’t. It’s the “it” factor, the charisma. So yes, I think WWE is relaxing its unwritten rule about size. When I was hiring talent, I knew Vince liked bigger guys, but so did Bill Watts, Eddie Graham and Ole Anderson, and they could all recognize that stars come in different packages, sizes and ethnicities.

If you have that intangible that can’t be taught and you can relate to your audience, you’re on your way. The good thing about guys coming out of NXT, like Kevin Steen, now Kevin Owens, is that they have a good foundation from the indies, they get refined in Orlando, and then they go on the road to audiences outside Florida who watch NXT on the WWE Network. They’re new, they’re fresh and they haven’t been overexposed. I think it’s a brilliant move. When I started the developmental system in the ’90s, one thing I’d do was send experienced guys who weren’t booked down there for a week or two, because a rookie can’t get better working with another rookie. It’s not bad, but it’s not nearly as valuable as working with someone experienced. The other way you get better is adding a new, paying audience. So running NXT tours and booking available veterans to add a name and some box office pop, while they’re in the ring with the young guys, is very smart. You probably won’t see them touring every week, because they still have to train and practice. The ideal thing is a three- or four-day tour, then coming back and working on your deficiencies. NXT is the future of WWE. There’s no division in the company more important than talent, how they’re managed and trained, and the next generation of WrestleMania main eventers is going to come through NXT.

Fred: With all due respect to Paul, he doesn’t have the final say. It’s still Vince, with Kevin Dunn and others around him. On the main roster, it feels like they’re having the same problem TNA had a few years back, on a smaller scale: Outside of Cena, Reigns, maybe Bryan and Ambrose, everybody seems like just another guy because of 50-50 booking, and titles don’t mean as much. Is there anything Triple H can do?

Jim Ross: As good a job as Paul is doing in NXT, there’s only one man who calls the final shots in WWE, no matter the division, and that’s Vince McMahon. Booking is philosophical. I worked for several bookers in my 40-year career, some better than others, just like some coaches are better than others. We’re in March Madness, and certain coaches are attuned to this time of year and make good decisions on clock management. I’m not a fan of 50-50 booking. This isn’t a knock on Paul or Vince, just my opinion. I think every match should have a reason and should advance someone, more than one if you’re smart and skilled enough. You don’t necessarily have to win to impress the fans and get over. It’s all in the performance and how the match is strategized. I like for fans to be either angry or happy with the outcome, never benign. Don’t be Switzerland. Don’t be neutral. Let me be angry that my favorite lost or happy that he won, because those are definitive emotions you can build on. If I beat you and then you beat me, what did we accomplish? A lot of that is because there are fewer main event-level talents, and you want to make sure your maintenance is good with those guys. But you’ve got to give somebody the ball and see where they go. That’s like the Roman Reigns situation right now. You don’t know where he’s going until you put him in the game, and he’s in the starting lineup on March 29.

The pressure to close the show at an event like WrestleMania is off the hook, and people don’t understand that because guys look natural. I’ve seen guys throw up before the match. The butterflies are like eagles. Closing the show takes a special breed of cat. Some guys have handled it well, and some haven’t. When Austin got to that level, he relished it. He was more comfortable there than anywhere. I remember booking him in tag matches on the road to give him a breather, because he was pulling the wagon, and my phone rang at my home in Connecticut. He was mad as hell. He said, “I haven’t worked all these years to become the main event guy to be in a tag match. I want to close the show.” In the Hogan era, they’d sometimes put the main event guy in the middle of the card and get him out of the arena early. That was never Austin. He wanted the responsibility of going on last, and he didn’t want a partner, except on TV to further a storyline. He thought people wanted to come see him and him alone, and he was probably absolutely right. That’s the linebacker mentality. He wanted to play, and he wanted to hit somebody.

Fred: You always come to play. “An Evening With Jim Ross” in Sayreville was humorous, a little inspirational, very informative and very personable, and you had a nice surprise guest in Sean “X-Pac” Waltman. The floor is yours to tell us about your big weekend in San Jose.

Jim Ross: The people at the Starland Ballroom were wonderful hosts. I didn’t realize until I did my due diligence that Sayreville was Bon Jovi’s hometown, and that he and a ton of luminaries had played that stage. I felt like a pair of brown shoes at a formal wedding. The weather wasn’t great. Going back to Philly for another show that Sunday afternoon of the Royal Rumble, the road was down to one lane. The crowd was great and very into the show. I do 20 or 30 minutes of monologue, but the big part of our show is the Q&A, because every audience is different. I don’t restrict any questions. Ask what you want, and I’ll give you an honest answer. If I don’t know, I won’t make one up just to BS you.

When you get to WrestleMania, any of us who are fans or who have been blessed to be part of it, like I was for so many years as a broadcaster, get a little pep in our step. There’s a difference between Oklahoma playing Iowa State and Oklahoma going to the Cotton Bowl, and I’m not knocking Iowa State. At WrestleMania the fans come from everywhere, which gives the Q&A amazing diversity. I’ve given out a lot of comps to friends in the business, MMA and TV, so it’s going to be a real who’s who. We sold out all the VIP tickets with the meet-and-greet, so what’s left are $20 general admission tickets. People spend a lot of money to get to WrestleMania, and I wanted to be fan friendly. They’re good seats at the Rock Bar Theater in San Jose, a former casino turned into a music hall, with free parking. Tickets are at TicketWeb.com and at the door the day of the event. Some of the best experiences of my career were broadcasting WrestleManias. I used to tell kids in training who asked how long it would take to get called up, “Hopefully you’ll do it faster than I did. It took me 19 years to get to WWE, and then I had 21 more years there.”

Fred: Who do you have coming up on your podcast? I just listened to your Terry Funk episode, and I can’t do the impression as well as you.

Jim Ross: Terry was on the week before last, and former Divas Champion Melina was a phenomenal guest. There were so many rumors and so much innuendo and BS about her, and I just let her tell her story. I’m not looking for salaciousness or dirt, but I want the show to be interesting. The Jim Cornette show drops tomorrow night, and a new show drops every Tuesday night at 9 on PodcastOne and iTunes. Shamrock’s coming up, Dave Meltzer will come on to review WrestleMania with me, I’ve got people from Lucha Underground coming on, and I have an interview with Shawn Michaels in the can. The schedule of guests booked through April is on the homepage of JRsBBQ.com. Before we got on the phone today, I finalized an interview with Samoa Joe for later today. It’ll be the first time I’ve talked to him. I’m having a blast connecting with people I don’t normally talk to and reconnecting with people I haven’t talked to in a long time.

Fred: When you’re in the Bay Area, are you planning on going to any shows as well?

Jim Ross: I’m going to try to go to the Rey Mysterio show on Thursday night and say hi to Rey. And my wife and I want to see Mick Foley’s show on Friday night in San Jose. We’ve seen it numerous times. Mick was probably one of my most overachieving hires. I went out on the end of a limb to get him hired, and he has a wonderful heart and does so many wonderful things for charity. I have no plans at this time to go to the Hall of Fame. I don’t know if they’ll invite the former Hall of Famers in the market. On Sunday morning, my wife and I fly back to Oklahoma, and I’ll watch WrestleMania on my iPad or PC on the network. I’ve been gone so much. I was in L.A. for meetings about opportunities to do more play-by-play in MMA, boxing and maybe kickboxing, then we went to the Rousey fight, and I went back to L.A. last week. I’m also in a movie called “What Now.” It’s a TV-14 comedy about four guys who are wrestling fans watching themselves get older, and I play the nasty boss of one of the central characters. It’ll be on video on demand on all the major cable companies on April 3. Watch the trailer until the end. Unfortunately for my two young granddaughters, Grandpa drops an F-bomb or two, so they won’t see the movie until they’re about 30.

Fred: J.R., if you need help getting the WWE Network on your TV, I can walk you through it, man. I think you’d like it more on your 40- or 50-inch TV than on the iPad.

Jim Ross: You’re absolutely right. A buddy gave me one of those Google Chrome things that plugs in, but that doesn’t work. I’ve got to get an Apple TV or something and figure it out, because I’d rather watch on our television. And for your East Coast listeners, we’re looking at doing a show in Baltimore in May, on the weekend WWE is there for its big pay-per-view, a show in July in St. Louis if that comes to be, and venues in Brooklyn for a show around SummerSlam. Follow me on Twitter at @JRsBBQ, and I’ll keep everybody updated. I appreciate the support and always enjoy talking to you.

Fred: Likewise. Looking forward to seeing you back in the New York area very soon. Folks, check him out in San Jose on WrestleMania weekend, and visit JRsBarBQ.com.