Ex-WWE Writer Kevin Marshall on Vince McMahon, WWE Network and UFC Woes

Fred: What’s up, everybody? This is Fred Richani of TSC News, and I have a very special guest via Skype. He’s not just a Kevin Marshall. He is the Kevin Marshall: comedian, one of the funniest people on Twitter, former WWE writer and former Spike.com writer, and a former colleague and buddy of mine. I was so inspired by Nikki Bella wanting to be referred to as the Nikki Bella on Raw that I put the Kevin Marshall on your lower third. How you doing, brother?

Kevin Marshall: I’m doing great. I heard about that, but I haven’t watched much Raw since I was kicked out of WWE as part of the epic layoffs back in July. I just went, “Oh, all right,” which seems to be what every fan watching Raw lately is going with every big segment.

Fred: You were in WWE for a brief but pivotal period. As a lifelong wrestling fan, getting involved much deeper than you thought you would be, what was that experience like?

Kevin Marshall: People go, “Oh, wow, it’s your dream job.” It’s not, and it never was. I didn’t apply to be a writer for creative. The posting online was for a digital writer, so I applied thinking I’d love to work on the website and social media end of things. They talked about wanting to do more storytelling on those platforms, and I said that’s great, because what I loved was the old Apter mag type stuff. Not hard-hitting journalism or behind-the-scenes stuff, but extensions of storytelling. Ricky Morton and Robert Gibson would be feuding, and they’d have this whole fake back-and-forth in PWI that enhanced the story. That’s what I wanted to do, and they said that’s exactly what they were looking for.

So I honestly thought I’d be writing articles for the website. Then I got there, and they brought me into the creative writers’ room in Stamford. They told me I’d meet with the digital guys on a regular basis and be a liaison between digital and creative. Everybody in that room assumed I’d have a cubicle out where digital is and be brought in to bounce ideas around. Then my title got changed to writer, digital/social, which meant I was part of the creative team 24/7. I never really understood if that was the intent from the beginning or if they just decided I’d be a good fit in the room. Long story short, I applied for one job and pretty much got the job as a writer and went, “Well, now I’m in for it.” And I was.

Fred: How hands-on is Vince McMahon in the creative process? Is he there all the time, or is he the guy you see last?

Kevin Marshall: We’d meet all week, and we’d meet with Vince very late on Thursday nights, sometimes Wednesdays. A lot of his work comes on Mondays and Tuesdays at the live tapings. Unfortunately, he not only has the final word, he micromanages everything to death. I said in my first interview that I understand this company is Vince’s brain living and breathing in the real world, and it very much is. The worldview all these characters have is pretty much Vince’s worldview, including how women are portrayed. A lot of the job was learning how to pitch to Vince, because he doesn’t get contemporary attitudes, let’s put it that way. He’s been living in his own world and promoting his own stuff for decades, and he doesn’t know any other way. So pretty much our job was to sit around, try to figure out what Vince is thinking, tell him and have him tell us he’s changed his mind. You could see it with the network launch, too. Everything gets micromanaged to death.

Fred: Was it intimidating when you first met him? This is Vincent freaking McMahon.

Kevin Marshall: Nope. I shook his hand, made eye contact and sat in on a few meetings with him. I think he wants to be intimidating, and I think he thinks he is, but I wasn’t intimidated at all. I think it helped that I didn’t set out to do this. I applied for the digital job as a lark, and I had no preconceptions. I don’t worship at anybody’s feet. Working at Spike, I’d work with celebrities, and I’d cringe when people got too fanboy. I’m just not impressed by a person’s presence and existence. The only person I can recall taking a picture with in the last few years was Abyss as Joseph Park, and he insisted on it. We shot a segment for Spike.com when TNA was touring ballparks, at the minor league park on Coney Island, and he stayed in character the entire time. He acted like he’d never heard of us, found out we were with Spike TV and freaked out: “Oh man, guys, Spike TV! I’ve got to take pictures with you!” It was really funny.

And here’s my full-bore defense of the creative guys who are there right now. They’re pushing that boulder uphill, because they have Vince pushing back. When something works and seems written well, it’s only because of their efforts and because they politically maneuvered the right thing to happen. Vince approves verbiage pretty much line by line, and a lot of the stuff that sounds stilted is because of Vince. You can’t write it like TV show dialogue, because pro wrestlers talking to each other like that would sound ridiculous. You also can’t write it how you think pro wrestling would sound, because you’ll get the feedback, “That’s too wrestling.” It’s a style of writing that’s like nowhere else, because top to bottom, that company is Vince-ified.

Fred: If Randy came to you with ideas, could you factor them into your writing, or would a guy like that go to Vince directly?

Kevin Marshall: The guys on the road would get approached with that, and they could bring it to Vince. Guys who have been there forever, especially John Cena, can bring their ideas to Vince directly. That is the one great thing about Vince. He’ll sit there and listen to pitches. Tons of guys brought him pitches. Big E would bring him pitches. Sometimes the talent would bounce ideas off the writers: “Do you think this works, and do you think Vince thinks this will work?” A lot of our vetting was, “This is a great idea. How can we get it through Vince?” To an extent that’s every show you write for. You’re at the whims of the showrunner. In this case, it’s a CEO wrestling promoter, so it becomes completely insane.

Fred: How involved is Paul Levesque in creative meetings, or is he more hands-on with NXT?

Kevin Marshall: He’s very hands-on with NXT. That’s his baby. But he’s part of creative, too. He and Stephanie are obviously being groomed to take over eventually, and when Vince leaves, which will be never, Hunter would take over the creative aspect and Stephanie would be the corporate face, which she already is. She does a fantastic job at it. She kills at that job, sort of like when Linda was the corporate face and Vince was the chairman. But at the end of the day, everybody’s at the whims of Vince.

Fred: 2014 has been a pivotal year. WWE changed its business model, pay-per-view is practically dead, the Undertaker’s streak is broken, they’re grooming Roman Reigns or Dean Ambrose for the top spot, The Shield broke up, and TNA is running on fumes. Maybe they’ll land a new TV deal, but who’s to say it will keep them in business?

Kevin Marshall: I’m going to interrupt you. It’s not going to happen. From the stuff I’ve heard about the TV deals they could have lined up, they’ll be the death of them either way. I would be shocked if TNA continued past the end of the year, and I think Bound for Glory is going to be the final show. That’s me speculating based on what I’ve read, but TNA is pretty much done, and Ring of Honor is the de facto No. 2 company in the United States now, which, sorry, Ring of Honor fans, is a little bit scary. Nobody is going to pay them Spike money again. They had a sweetheart deal, and they did everything they could to ruin it.

Fred: You and I were both at Spike when there was still some optimism with the TNA product. They screwed things up with James Storm, who was never the same after he didn’t win the title in his hometown, but prior to Aces & Eights, around 2012 and early 2013, it was an easy two hours to watch. Even Hulk Hogan was a good GM. Then it fell off a cliff.

Kevin Marshall: Once Aces & Eights became a central angle, I think somebody got it in their head that “Sons of Anarchy” is a huge show in Spike’s demo, so this would be really cool. A biker gimmick can work, but as a companywide angle, it’s just a bunch of out-of-shape wrestlers pretending to be biker guys. They’re not the nWo. Pro wrestling as a whole had been exhausted from invasion angles, and even with Bully Ray there, that group could be seen as B and C level, and they dragged it out forever. That period before it was the most watchable wrestling program out there. It didn’t actively try to insult your intelligence. Then, when it came time for the payoffs, they started screwing it up.

Fred: And then Dixie Carter became an on-air heel authority figure, around the time Stephanie McMahon was doing it a lot better.

Kevin Marshall: That’s exactly why they did it. I say this with all sincerity: Stephanie is my favorite performer in WWE in terms of her character, how she carries herself, her presence and her mic work. As much as people joked about her back in the day, she’s amazing in that role. TNA saw that and, as they always have throughout their history, tried to do a poor man’s version of it. Even if Dixie had knocked it out of the park, she’s still going to look like the poor man’s Stephanie McMahon, because she’s on the B-level show. Unless you embrace what you are and try to be an alternative, copying WWE angles just makes you look second-rate. And it’s worse when you have someone in that role on TV who just isn’t suited to it.

Fred: Let’s talk about the WWE Network. What went wrong?

Kevin Marshall: I think WWE as a company botched the execution a little, and a lot of that was the result of people making decisions who didn’t really know what an over-the-top network was, other than saying the phrase “over the top.” The perfect example of the tone-deaf nature of it is the slogan “WWE Network, it’s way over the top.” If you ask the average fan what that means, they don’t know, because it’s insider jargon. From an execution standpoint, two big things hurt it. One is the pay-per-view thing. This is Monday morning quarterbacking, but there were some of us who said, “Wow, I can’t believe we’re putting the Rumble and WrestleMania on there. That’s a lot of revenue to take a hit on.” WWE was right that this is the model that will sustain a company that large for years to come, because pay-per-view is being usurped by stuff like Netflix, but it might have been too soon to put all the pay-per-views on there. The pay-per-view companies were really upset, DirecTV dropped them, and there’s no going back.

The other problem was the user interface. There was no queue you could build, and you got brought immediately to that 24/7 stream, which is so stupid and unnecessary. They emphasized the stream way too much instead of on-demand, which should be the main draw, because that’s how people use Netflix. As much as I knock the UFC, Fight Pass works because they built on the existing UFC.tv interface and didn’t waste resources on a 24/7 stream. And when you want to grab people with nostalgia, the stuff people remember isn’t the pay-per-views. It’s the television. It took them months to make Clash of the Champions available. WCW Saturday Night and all that classic stuff should be day one, because without the television, a lot of those old pay-per-views don’t have any context. And if you make Nitros available, make them all available. If Netflix released “House of Cards” one episode a week, it would be a disaster. People binge-watch. It shows a real lack of understanding of contemporary culture.

Fred: I’m on UFC Fight Pass right now. They have every UFC ever, the Fuel shows, Affliction, EliteXC, Invicta, all of Pride, Strikeforce, the WEC and the WFA, and there are rumors they may acquire the FEG library with K-1 and Dream. If you’re an MMA fan, what’s the point of the WWE Network?

Kevin Marshall: Pride, especially, had much better booking and storytelling than a lot of contemporary pro wrestling, and I don’t just say WWE. During that peak period, they did everything right, from the storytelling to the presentation. People talk about how MMA is like pro wrestling but real, and that era of Pride is the perfect example of how pro wrestling would ideally look if it were real. If you’ve never seen it, check it out on Fight Pass.

Fred: For those who don’t know, Wanderlei was supposed to fight Chael Sonnen, they coached the Brazilian Ultimate Fighter, and Chael became the babyface on that show in Brazil. Then Wanderlei literally ran away from a drug test, announced his retirement in a video where he buried the UFC, and today the Nevada State Athletic Commission banned him for life and fined him $70,000. Chael failed his own tests and is pretty much retired. What are your thoughts?

Kevin Marshall: It’s tragic. He was one of my favorite fighters, but he hung on way too long. As for the appeal, there’s precedent with the Nevada commission. They tried this once before with a boxer, and it’s already been established that they can’t institute a lifetime ban. They can refuse to license a fighter, which is in effect the same thing. That being said, everything that has happened to Wanderlei over the last year or so, he brought on himself, 100 percent. If he had even met with the testers and refused on site, the penalty probably would have been less severe, because guys have refused before. It’s incredible that Chael Sonnen could go to Brazil and be cheered. Having said all that, a lot of what Wanderlei said about the UFC is dead on. The UFC does not treat its fighters fairly. They’re the first ones to throw them under the bus. Unfortunately, the message gets skewed because of the messenger. Ben Askren has said a lot of the same things, and regardless of his motivations, he’s dead on about Dana and the UFC and how they treat their fighters.

With Chael, he doesn’t need to win fights. He’s such a good talker and such a good character that he could have been a middling fighter, clean, and still been at the top and drawn a lot of money. It’s just so unbelievably unnecessary.

Fred: Chris Weidman broke his hand, so the UFC moved Johny Hendricks vs. Robbie Lawler to that December show with Pettis and Melendez. It’s been a bad year for UFC pay-per-view with all the injuries, but there’s a lot of oversaturation, too. What are your thoughts on the state of the UFC?

Kevin Marshall: Our thoughts align perfectly. It’s oversaturation. You have guys getting title fights who people have seen maybe on Facebook prelims. It used to be fewer events, so even casual fans knew these fighters well before they got a title opportunity. Now there are so many fighters that guys get lost in the shuffle, and the more opportunities you give people not to watch, the more they’re not going to watch. A guy skips one event because there’s another next week, and all of a sudden an every-event viewer rarely watches. They haven’t really had a can’t-miss event this year, even before the injuries. In hindsight, Dana said 2012 was the worst year in UFC history for pay-per-view, and this year was already trending to be worse. They’re pushing up the Lawler-Hendricks rematch, and we hardcore fans are excited, but I don’t know if casual viewers care. It’s a really fun fight, but neither one is a top-level draw.

Fred: I respect Dana White and everything he’s done, but a lot of what made him great is working against the UFC’s image now. “If you don’t want to buy the pay-per-view, don’t buy it. This card was fun.” We don’t buy cards because they’re fun. We buy cards with intriguing fights.

Kevin Marshall: The problem is Dana doesn’t know when to keep his mouth shut. It served the UFC better to have a bombastic firebrand as their public face when they were struggling for respect and didn’t have a microscope on them. Now that everybody knows what the UFC is and he’s got a lot more microphones in front of him, he has more time to dig himself a hole, and it’s hurting the UFC. I think the only way they’re going to move forward is if he steps aside. People will argue, “Look what he’s done for the sport.” Yeah, done, past tense. What has he done for the sport in the last few years that the sport hasn’t done for itself? You’re supposed to act like you’re at the level of the NFL or Major League Baseball. Can you imagine Roger Goodell cursing out reporters covering the Ray Rice scandal? We laugh because it would be ridiculous, but that’s what Dana does, like taking Jonathan Snowden to task or using the UFC 177 hype time on FS1 to bury Dave Meltzer over something Dave didn’t even say.

Hunter took a lot of heat when I was there because he said in an interview that he doesn’t watch the UFC because they aren’t very good at telling stories, and people ripped him: “Look at this guy. He thinks everything’s a work.” I think what he was trying to say, and he’s right, is they don’t promote well. They don’t give you the opportunity to get to know the guys who are going to be contenders, so you’re not invested in title fights unless you’re a hardcore fan. That’s a very real problem for the UFC going forward.

Fred: They also keep Ronda Rousey’s opponents anonymous. Did anybody know who Alexis Davis was before?

Kevin Marshall: Exactly. People think there’s not enough depth in women’s MMA, but it’s there. They just focus on Ronda and don’t develop the division. Part of that is because Dana didn’t think women would draw going in. He was wrong, and now I think he’s convinced only Ronda can draw, and he’s wrong again. They’re doing it with the 115-pound division on TUF 20, but the fact that he skipped 125 speaks volumes. The season premiere was fantastic, but it drew record lows, because TUF is a limping franchise. And all these women are stars in their own way. Joanne Calderwood is so marketable. She’s soft-spoken with an eminently likable persona, and then she gets in the cage and she’s a monster. Bec Rawlings and Felice Herrig have great personalities. Instead, the commercials marketed sex appeal, and it was condescending and borderline misogynistic. Talk about not knowing your audience.

Fred: You and I were both involved on the digital side with Bellator. When we were there, it was the Bjorn Rebney show with the tournament format. Bjorn always gave me his time and was a nice guy to me, but there were people who had their differences with him. Now Scott Coker has been on the job a couple of months, and Bellator seems to have a fresh coat of paint.

Kevin Marshall: It just goes to show how much things changed immediately when Scott took over and how much more watchable and fun the events became, Stephan Bonnar and Tito Ortiz aside. The tournament format and all the stuff with Eddie Alvarez was Bjorn’s personality and management style, and it did him in. I think what he did to Eddie Alvarez was wrong, and all it did was hurt Bellator. If Bellator had let Eddie go, either he wasn’t successful in the UFC, which shows Bellator has the superior fighter in Michael Chandler, or he was successful, and Bellator has the guy who beat him. Win-win. Instead it dragged on forever and made Bellator look bush league. With Coker, there’s always going to be some promotional stuff, but it’s entertaining, and you accept it if you acknowledge that combat sports isn’t a purely athletic endeavor. Going back to the golden age of boxing, there’s always been a story to tell, and Scott gets that. I think Bellator is going to provide a legitimate alternative to the UFC, not just a promotion trying to compete with them, but something different.

Fred: What’s the story behind Road Dogg getting on the mic and saying, as Kevin Marshall would say, “Here’s the deal,” shouting you out on Raw?

Kevin Marshall: Shout out to Road Dogg. He was always great to me during my time there. You won’t meet many people with a bigger heart. He really took the time to help us with our storytelling and how it fit into the world of professional wrestling, and I’ll always be indebted to him for that. That night was weird. I was on the home team, so I was at home watching Raw, because it was part of my job. I thought I heard it, but it was like that moment when you realize your keys are in the car as the door is shutting. You can’t process it. Then I started getting texts and seeing mentions on Twitter from people asking, “Who the hell is Kevin Marshall?” He needed something to rhyme, and I had been given the catchphrase “Here’s the deal” based on a total non-story. He just said it on TV because he’s cool. But I care more about the fact that I got to work for Road Dogg, because he was an awesome professional, one of the best heel workers of all time, even though he’ll never admit it, and a guy with a really smart head for the business.

Fred: Did you watch a lot of NXT during your time in WWE?

Kevin Marshall: Yeah, it’s very watchable. It’s the closest thing we have to a territory show these days, very simple and straightforward, which is good, because in pro wrestling, a lot of times, the simpler the better. But it has a niche audience, and the only problem I’d point to is that it doesn’t prepare guys for what happens when they bring their characters up to the main roster. Bo Dallas is a perfect example: a character that worked really well in NXT and then came up and just hasn’t worked out. Otherwise, top to bottom, behind the scenes, they did an awesome job.

Fred: They kicked and screamed before they finally pushed Daniel Bryan, and then they were already positioning Kane against him.

Kevin Marshall: They only made the change because the fans turned against what they wanted to provide, and even then, they gave it to you halfway. In my mind, Daniel Bryan is still the biggest star WWE has. But not to take anything away from John Cena. I think all the hate for Cena is mostly unfounded. When he’s not on TV or on tour, you see the difference. He’s legitimately a moneymaker, and he deserves it, because he’s one of the best workers of his generation. Anybody who thinks John Cena isn’t one of the best workers of all time has a different idea of working than what it is. I learned this from guys like Road Dogg: It’s not what you do, it’s when you do it and why. Bruiser Brody had some of the greatest matches of all time, and a lot of times all he did was punch and kick. John Cena gets that, and Daniel Bryan gets that, too. I just don’t see WWE under Vince McMahon ever moving to an era where the top guys are guys like Daniel Bryan.

Fred: Lastly, have you ever doubted El Dandy? And you watched CMLL over the weekend. You tweeted that it restored your faith in professional wrestling.

Kevin Marshall: I would never in a million years doubt El Dandy, and neither should you. CMLL reminded me why I love professional wrestling so much. It was cathartic, because I understood why WWE did what they did when they laid off pretty much the entire home team and all of WWE Magazine. I actually tried to email my contact person at HR a question after I got laid off, only to find out she was laid off, too. I didn’t harbor any ill will, but it made it very hard to muster the enthusiasm to watch pro wrestling. That mask vs. mask match between Ultimo Guerrero and Atlantis had an awesome story, a tremendous build and an incredible atmosphere. When it ended, before Ultimo even took off his mask, they showed his family in tears, and grown men in their 50s and 60s were sobbing. It gave me chills. For lifelong fans of pro wrestling, if you get it, no explanation is necessary, and if you don’t, no explanation will do. When it’s at its best, there’s nothing better than pro wrestling. I don’t think I’d ever go back to WWE, but if I ever worked in pro wrestling again, that’s why.

Fred: Since you brought up that emotion, the night of WrestleMania 30, when the Undertaker lost, were the shock waves felt through the company?

Kevin Marshall: Oh, yeah. I’m still shocked by it. That was a very tightly guarded finish that not everybody, even in creative, was aware of. I think in the long run it was the right call. Look at how Lesnar was booked at SummerSlam. Conventional thinking would be to give it to a guy who needs it more, but it put Brock Lesnar, a guy you didn’t think could go to that next level, up to that next level. If I had been put in that position, I probably would have said no. Undertaker goes over, even if it’s through something screwy, and Lesnar can recover. But it wasn’t the worst decision in the world. It contributed to what I think was one of the best WrestleManias in history. And Paul Heyman’s reaction made it even better. I wouldn’t be surprised if he knew and is just that good at what he does.

Fred: One of the best nights in pro wrestling history, capped off by the streak ending and Daniel Bryan winning the title. Kevin, thank you so much. Where can people find the Kevin Marshall online?

Kevin Marshall: My primary conduit is Twitter, and you can find everything through there. And my last word would be: Always consume everything critically. Don’t be a sycophant for the UFC or WWE, and never take the attitude that you should be grateful for their existence. Whether you’re an aspiring MMA journalist or just a fan, don’t just accept what they give you. Demand better. That extends to all things in life. That’s life advice from somebody who’s never made it.

Fred: You’ve been pretty successful in this business, man. Don’t sell yourself short. Thanks so much for your time, Kevin.