Composer John Lunn on The Last Kingdom, Downton Abbey

This is Fred Richani. I have right here on the line a very special guest. He is one of the most highly regarded composers in all of showbiz, you may know his work for a number of films and TV shows including downtown Abbey and of course, my personal favorite the last Kingdom we’re talking to the great Composer John Lunn. John. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. How’s everything going? Guy. Hey, I’m so pleased to be with you all yeah. Great. Yeah, still alive and that’s rather rather weird circumstances that we find ourselves in the last 18 months, but no all good.

Yeah, that’s awesome. And we are joined by you in your studio is this in your home right now or is this a separate building. No, it’s actually in the basement of the house. I’ve just in fact, if it wasn’t for the pandemic. I’d never I’ve just completely gutted my studio and started again from scratch, it took eight months. But now I’m really pleased with it. It’s most of this gear you can see behind me is all used for the last Kingdom because we mainly use analog synths and for those of you viewers who know about this kind of thing we use quite a lot of eurorack modular.

Gear and an analog sense and you know, the odd bits of percussion. And of course, we use the incredible singer ivor paul’s dot here, but basically it’s all done year. Yeah, well, how’s your electrical Bill. I don’t look at it fair enough. Now with the last Kingdom, man. One of my all-time favorite shows a lot of people love it. One of the top shows on Netflix and worldwide. It is coming to an end the fifth and final season. I know you can’t give too much away, but just as the Composer and somebody who has really been intertwined with the series and the emotion of all these things like how’s it been working on the final season pretty amazing.

Actually, I in fact, I think it’s probably the best season so far actually and I’m amazed by it some of the some of the sort of younger actors who came in, you know, in the middle of the show. Like you know, king edward have really done and done. They’ve got such a big part. And they’ve done so well. I mean, I can’t actually there’s a lot. I can’t say you know, there’s a fair amount of deaths of well-loved characters. I have to warn you know, particularly from about episode 5 through to episode 10. And you know, there’s some big characters die before the end of the series.

And of course, they all need music. You know, I mean, those are you know, massive music moments really and so it’s been fascinating cave. You know, because all that material built up all those years. And in some ways, particularly in episode 10, which we’re working on at this very moment in fact, we’ve been able to go back to the very very first series, you know, and some of the original music that iver and I wrote together, and it’s kind of come full circle and you mentioned working with ivor and she is such an incredible singer and for fans of the show they hear like the vocals, especially at the beginning of the show, it is powerful and I’m not exaggerating when I tell you this.

Like when I listen to what also some of those live recordings. You did I guess via Zoom and then put on YouTube. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s like you get like emotional. What’s it like just working with somebody of that caliber? Well, I mean, it’s astonishing and we I mean? We’ve become really good friends actually I’ll tell you what happened was. I was when I was first approached to do it. I’d become really famous for doing Downton Abbey, but actually my heart really in doing electronic music. And so when the last Kingdom came up. I thought, oh, great. I want to do something very different from dayton because I’m getting a bit typecast as a Composer of Downton Abbey and I suggested that we do all with analog sense because there’s a little bit of a worry that it might be compared to game of thrones.

I mean, it’s not really nothing like game of thrones, but there are you know, shield walls and stuff like that. And so I thought and said, let’s not do a kind of pseudo-orchestral kind of score? Let’s just go fully modern and that unused mainly since and but however there were these battle scenes and I was just struggling a little bit to kind of that I needed something that was really sort of epic and my agent played me a YouTube video of ivar just playing the drum and singing and she was doing this sort of a weird chanting kind of throat singing, but it was kind of rhythmic.

It was kind of cool. And it was just sounded. So aggressive and I thought oh god that’d be. So perfect for the last last Kingdom. So I got in touch with her and she’s from the farewells. But she lives in copenhagen. And I flew her over to London and she stayed with us and we just recorded for like three days and initially. I just brought her over for that rhythmic sort of thing that you can hear in the title track that the it kind of, you know kiss off and then I just said to her. I said, what would you know what kind of singing would you do over the top of that and she did that title just on the spot.

You know, and I remember looking at my engineer and I looking at each other and going? Oh my christ. That’s you know, that’s it. That’s the sign of the last Kingdom. And so we you know, agreed to work together and we share the publishing on it as well. And you know, so we basically write write it together. Yeah, but she’s been just awesome and also she’s been amazing to work with she’s just got no. She’s one of the easiest people to work with and she’s never really done film music before. And so, you know, I did have to sort of explain to her. Just kind of, you know, how what we needed to do.

So I would organize the track and I would give it to her and say, you know, explain to her. What was happening in the scene and you know what kind of feeling we needed to get and invariably she just got it buying on. I mean, now we don’t really I don’t really have to explain it to you. I just, you know, just send it to her. She did a great job. You’ve done a great job. Now, I’m curious when it comes to the last Kingdom and any other shows that you work on. Do you ever work with the actors at all. Like if it’s like a bit like a big star like alexander draymond does anybody ever tell you okay like this would be kind of cool for.

My major scene or anything like that or is it usually just kind of going through the production house or whoever’s doing the series. Yeah, we very rarely have that much contact there is however one. On series in series five the very beginning of it there is a kind of there’s a sort of a sequence that needs a kind of almost like a kind of viking choir sort of thing. So we have I’m not on set. But iva is and so she was working with some of the actors. Alexander we’ve kind of got to know alexander pretty well because we all get together for you know, screenings and stuff like that, but and for instance.

I think he’s direct. He directed episode, two of the new series. I think, but I saw him directly. That’s pretty. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but the and it’s great. It’s a great episode, but we didn’t really have much contact with him because while we were working in episode two they were filming episode seven or eight or something and you know, he’s got a massive part and you know, in those episodes. So, you know, he wasn’t really available to work. We just did the music on our own really. Yeah, we’ll get back to the last Kingdom, but I want to talk about your career because everybody always focuses on when you’re a success, right?

Oh my god, John loves music is amazing. And you know, he’s involved all these great shows and movies, but the journey has to start somewhere. So for you how old were you when you first got into music and realized, man. I really liked playing these instruments. I was quite it was quite late actually? Well, my father was a saxophone player in a jazz band when I was growing very young. And he kind of gave up, but he was a massive jazz fan. So it was a lot of jazz in the house and my mother was quite into classical. So they were both into music there was a lot.

I mean, I was listening to a lot of music and then when I was about 12 I started myself getting into, you know, pink floyd and jimmy hendrix and you know, but eventually by the time. I was 13 or 14 I was really into miles Davis and duke ellington and back and I kind of left behind that sort of progressive rock music and up I eventually became really really obsessed with the sound of it. And I went along to school and said, you know, I want to be able to play an instrument and initially. I wanted to play the cello, but they didn’t have any vacancies.

So I mean, I was about 13 now, which is quite old to start playing an instrument, but they had a vacancy for the double bass, which was just perfect for me because most people don’t really start playing the double bass until about 13 because of the sheer size of it. And I just took to it like a duck to water. And then six months later I started on the piano and I was really lucky he had a really good school in scotland. Music was really good music teachers were really good really helpful and then when I finished school, I decided to go to university and study music.

I could have gone to a music college and concentrated on double bass and piano, but I was becoming much more interested in how music was put together. So I decided to go to university. And that I went to glasgow university and that was a really good move. And a year four years at glasgow university. I left as a Composer now I didn’t know I was going to go into film then I just knew I wanted to write music that in whatever form. It was and initially I was I had this kind of rather. Schizophrenic sort of life where I was on the one hand. I was really involved in very serious avant-garde classical music and on the other hand.

I was also in many pop bands at the same time. And so and it just so and then I came down to London and I was doing that in London for about 10 years. And I ended up doing just so many different varieties of music. You know, played with a I played for bali. You know, I did quite a lot of jazz. I was doing, I ended up with working with dance companies like modern dance companies. Like twilight kind of thing, but this equivalent in London and I started writing these club descript music pieces, which were sort of descriptive didn’t. But they had kind of quite an oblique story line to them and I just find I you know, I really took to that and from there.

It was just one step into, you know, writing for film and TV. I didn’t do my first film till I was like 32. Wow. So yeah, but then once I’d done it. I knew that I just knew that’s what I wanted to do, you know, and have that happen because not everybody gets that opera opportunity did was it just my happenstance of going through some different parties and everything. Yeah just well, of course I built up quite a lot of contacts, especially through the dance world that had you know a few direct. They would some of them would use directors who would then go on to work on film and TV and that and we were in that theater world.

You know, that and you just make contacts like that. And you know, yeah, I was very lucky. I sent a cassette this will show you how long it was I sent a cassette to somebody I’d worked I knew 10 years previously at the bbc and I they just fired a Composer for a job and the cassette landed on his desk. And he looked and said, oh, I remember John lennon and they just fired somebody and he put it on and he really liked it. And he gave me the job. And I really haven’t really stopped since then so how did you get involved with downtown Abbey was it just a matter of the same thing like networking and just building that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I’m I ended up working for the bbc a lot. And I started doing to begin with I did a lot more film and then I started to move into to television, but the bbc started doing these quite long. Series like bleak house and little dora that on that actually they were definitely quite famous in America at some point. But the they were I did quite like this idea of having, you know, doing eight hours of something rather than just, you know a 90-minute film. I just find you could explore your material a lot more so and also in those days, especially in London films were slightly struggling with budgets and they you were never entirely sure.

If they were going to happen or not, but as a TV was just doing so well that it just you knew it was going to happen. If you get asked to do the job. So I ended up moving more and more into TV and you know, I worked at the bbc and one of them the main the guy who became the main show runner for Downton Abbey had been at the bbc and he’d started up his own company called carnival films and I’d already been doing quite a lot of work for them and when they did Downton. He mentioned it to me and said, you want to take a look and you know, see what you think and I took a look and I thought are you oh yeah.

No, no, this looks like fun. I think I could do a good job here, but none of us none of us knew how big it was going to be Downton. I mean like that was about 11 12 years ago, and now, you know, and now we’re just about to? So I’m just about to start work on once I’ve got last Kingdom finished. I’m going straight on to the new Downton movie mistake in carnival films is also the company behind the last Kingdom. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, is that how you got linked up with that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I’ve just I’ve almost become like a house Composer for this production company basically I’ve done, everything they’ve done in the last seven or eight years.

I think yeah. Besides, you know, the opportunity to obviously do. So some more great work with carnival what initially attracted you to join the last Kingdom and work on it. I think for me. It was just really important because it was so different from Downton Abbey that was the first thing that really attracted me to do it. And I thought I could do something a kind of music that. I’d always wanted to do, but never, you know, I’d just never had the opportunity to actually release it out into the open. I mean to begin with it was just kind of all half-formed really I went and it wasn’t really until I met either that it really became fully formed.

I mean, she was the final part of the, you know of the jigsaw and you know in many many ways the main part actually it would be nothing without her. But it was also kind of simpler kind of style of music as well, which I kind of quite enjoyed doing whereas where you concentrate on the actual sound of the thing that you’re making. And also I like working in a studio rather than like Downton Abbey, you know, I use a computer to emulate what the thing will eventually sound like you know, it’s the all the samples. I used to write it with they’ll all get replaced by real people on the last Kingdom.

It’s very different, it gets built up with the real sound that we are actually going to use there’s no such thing as what we call a mock-up of it. It’s all kind of we start right from the word go with the sounds that we’re actually going to use, you know for the show. So it’s perfect for me because I like that aspect of it. I like being able to you know, I mean in some ways, I’m like a one-man band in the studio, you know, I’m running around banging a bass drum or playing a liar or you know or you know, I mean? Like I use the double my double bass a lot you wouldn’t know.

It was a double bass because it’s really distorted and put through a guitar arm, but it just sounds much more like a guitar, but it’s incredibly useful. Now, we always like to ask all our guests some kind of random questions about their career in life just to get to know them better. Are you ready? Yeah, find a way. All right. Favorite late night snack or cheat meal? A really really hot and spicy pasta alio olio just with garlic and chili that sounds delicious great. Great choice my friend who has the best accent on the last Kingdom breeder I like when they say bebenberg. It is it just sounds so nice.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but you’re gonna hit you well, you’re gonna hear a lot of that in series five. Okay, can’t wait who is the last Kingdom character. You most relate to and why I think possibly biaka. I think because he’s kind of quite a sort of parental, you know, I’ve got two young, but not young. They’re both in their early 20s, but I’ve got to get yeah, I feel I think that sort of parental role of bjorka besides ivor. What’s your favorite collaboration you’ve done I’ve worked a lot with another Composer called jim williams who’s just an incredible guitarist. And we’ve done quite a few a lot of things together.

I’m just trying. He’s also a film Composer as well. In fact me him and craig armstrong were in a band in glasgow at one point, like 35 years ago, you mentioned your bands. You mentioned your band are any of or is any of your previous music like as part of these bands like available. Yeah. Somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. I was in this band called man jumping. And I finally have I’m just about to go. I’m going on monday. I’m going to do a podcast in the studio where we first recorded with the band about it? Yeah, we’ve just re-released we only ever did two albums and we were seven men.

All composers. All heterosexual all with composers with giant egos we after about four years on the road. We all hated each other. And so we only did two albums, but they are incredibly good albums and you can get them on, you know, they’re on itunes and spotify and so yeah. No, if you like the last Kingdom check out man, jumping. I’ll definitely have to check that out what is your most awkward career moment. I once got asked to take over in the middle of a series for a friend who wants to go off to russia to get married and I said yes as a favor and the job was a complete not a nightmare, I ended up taking myself off it.

I think that’s almost that’s the only time I’ve never really succeeded in a job? What are some major do’s and don’ts for aspiring composers. I’d be careful about getting too worried about if you haven’t done or your career is not going very well in your 20s because it’s such a it’s a job that requires an awful lot of experience and an awful lot of kind of different musical experience, you know, people come to me when they don’t know what kind of music. They’re after because I can do virtually any style of music. So that’s a good place to be in, you know, if you try and I think if you’re in your early 20s and you started to get into film music.

I think there’s a chance. You’re going to end up with a kind of, you know a single style you need to get out there and to have lots of experience with lots of different music because you’re going to need it. So would you say get comfortable with being uncomfortable and kind of putting yourself out there and really really kind of just totally. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. You need to be able to do all kinds of music really and before we let you go, sir. What else are you currently working on that we can look out for in addition to the last Kingdom and the second movie of downtown Abbey after the Downton Abbey movie.

I’ll be doing another series of shetland, which is set in scotland here. And it’s become really popular in Europe. It’s actually like a detective series. So, I’ll be doing that basically before we let you go, where can fans find you and your work online, you know, virtually every, you know, there’s some I’ve got a soundcloud account where I’ve put some elements of the last Kingdom that not on the album, but you know, the last Kingdom albums on everything’s on spotify itunes you name it. You know, you can buy a vinyl copy of it, which is my preference. I think it sounds great. Yeah. So, we’re doing another one because we did that I think for season three or was it season three.

We did that soundtrack. So, we’re doing another one to take care of seasons four and five. Yeah. Thank you so much for the time, man. It was an absolute pleasure definitely looking forward to seeing all your work or hearing all your work on the last Kingdom downtown Abbey and everything else. You got going on cheers, Fred that was great really enjoyed it.